Post "UNCUT - Hero Worship (TNG S5E11) | Star Trek Journey 218" by "Target Audience" from patreon

Darin Starr

I enjoyed this WAY more on rewatch with you guys than I have previously. The direction really jumps out. The kid is actually "good" (not great) and it's just a good human story with a B-plot that ties in well and makes sense (plus technobabble)

Steven Linden

Agreed. There are emotions other than trauma.

Steven Linden

I agree that Geordi's scene was nice to see. But I also have to say, I also like Geordi as a dorky science nerd. Not saying it's because I find that relatable but... I find that relatable.

Badger

Interesting take..

Ron Hubbard Jr

I agree. Comments like those are very insensitive. That is not something to joke about especially if you’ve been a victim of it.

Ron Hubbard Jr

It’s interesting that Timothy said the aliens were wearing helmets and they were discussing the Breen. 🤔

Ron Hubbard Jr

I worked there almost three years starting when I was 21. The only good thing that came from that is that I met my wife there (she was a co-worker). We’ve been married 31 years now.

Ron Hubbard Jr

I’m only re-watching this episode for your reaction. D for me.

Joe Concepts

Well, a C isn't THAT high.

Jovet

@Nolan To me, Timothy's willingness to only step out of his chosen persona with Data makes Troi's professional redaction even worse. Maybe he just needed the "ON THE STARSHIP ENTERPRISE, NO ONE IS ALONE!" speech.

Scarpad’s Domain

Yeah I'm convincd that if they can give this such high Marks and hate an episode like Darmok, they are gonna like NUtrek

Scarpad’s Domain

Yeah after a rewatch i still think this is a snoozer of an episode, the kid was better than i remember, i just didnt care

Scarpad’s Domain

too much of current trek and tv for that matter is all trauma

Scarpad’s Domain

surprised they liked this considering the kids wearing Wesley's sweater

Derek Orr

1:00:58 there are stories that make you feel things and are scientific and yet do not involve trauma. Stories that invoke the sense of wonder and awestruck at the universe and the adventure in exploration of the frontier…thats peak star trek for many of us.

Derek Orr

@44:53 jesus guys wtf…not this again🤦‍♂️. Americans have become so weirdly obsessed with pedo paranoia and just generally seem to work it into culture and conversations like 10x more than 15 years ago.

Nolan

I dunno. When my Dad was dying I basically spent all my available waking hours playing The Elder Scrolls 4... I needed the escspe into a world where I got to control things, where my decisions mattered and had some impact. Because I was totally lacking that in real life. I NEEDED the break from facing reality at times. It helped me cope with the loss I was experiencing. So I don't begrudge the idea of Troi thinking that allowing this kid to fantasize as a form of escapism, to put distance between his feelings so he could actually THINK about them instead of just being overwhelmed feeling them, makes sense. The fact he was still asking questions about his feelings versus Data's experiences indicate to me that despite his escapist fantasy, he was still feeling things. Just not irrationally expressing them. I'm sure the minute Deanna sensed his emotional state was deadening, she'd end the support for his fantasy and adjust her apporach.

Derek Orr

Agreed on moving away from tier ranking stuff

Derek Orr

In what way is he awful?

Derek Orr

Exactly..the concept was more like a mobile starbase or small city of the federation that is on a long term mission in deep space exploring new frontiers, supporting distant colonies etc. Trek unfortunately slowly morphed into more of a star wars like thing with things feeling more like battleships than starships.

Derek Orr

NOT a battleship.

Joe Concepts

I love the casual use of "Dorf" in these discussions.

Joe Concepts

Yeah they gave that teacher guy a bad character. They could've fixed that by just having Timothy act up more. Yell at the teacher or something. That was barely acting out.

Joe Concepts

I was definitely surprised by that A+ given you guys have been tough on kid episodes in the past. Then again, the first kids' episode was that one from Season 1, which wasn't good at all.

Anthony Goodwin

This episode was being filmed on the day that Gene Roddenberry had died of heart failure at the age of 70, which was on October 24th of 1991. Rick Berman's wife, Elizabeth, was at a library when she ran into Leonard Nimoy's wife, Susan Bay, and Susan told Elizabeth about what happened and then Elizabeth told Rick, and that's when Rick came down to the set and told Patrick Stewart first in his trailer, and then they told the rest of the cast on set about what happened. Sad, but eerie, fact, but Jeri Taylor also died that same day, 33 years later, last year.

paultardspambot .

I know it was a joke, but with the Kirk trial, it wouldn't have affected anything as Kirk would have been an authorized user and would have legitimately been able to use the jettison button.

Timothy Nikiforovs

Going through the show again I'm noticing how much they gave Troi to do this season. Not all of it good, but a lot of it is. I would agree however that it was very unwise to let the kid pretend to be an android. I'd give this one a B or B-. The child actor wasn't bad, but not great either, but it's a Data heavy episode which always helps. A lot of similarities to The Bonding, but perhaps not as well executed in some ways.

Joshua Langweil

I believe Gene Roddenberry died during the filming of this episode.

Jovet

@Column Meanie The problem is if he really felt that much guilt and anguish over what happened, she SHOULD have been able to sense that from him! Lying in a feeble attempt to cover that up should make that even easier.

Jovet

Troi encouraging others to enable Timothy to bury his feelings versus really facing what has happened is what really bothers me.

Jovet

I think he is just fine. I just don't believe the episode is written very well as a whole.

Jovet

It's a work–life balance thing.

Jovet

It's a big reason why the writing in this episode is so weak.

Nolan

Meanwhile, America in the 50's: "Sure, we'll build a nuclear missile silo next to this quaint town. Everyone is gonna get vaporized anyways." I think the concept of the Enterprise as a flying city blurs that line a bit. Unfortunately the low budget for extras and narratives of the series kinda took it more towards a battleship with a military base bolted into it. It does raise the question though, if you did have a flying city travelling through space, with homes and green spaces and schools, does that alter the perception of bringing kids along on a Space voyage?

Nolan

Not only that, he's the new kid in school too.

Shanelle

😂😂 so ridiculous

Greg Quinn

Kids mom and dad just died....he's trying to regain some feeling of control over his environment and life "WE AREN'T BUILDING ANYMORE PICK UP YOUR MYTHOLOGY BOOK"... LOL

Shanelle

I see a lot of people ragging on the kids. But what about the teachers? They’re so judgy. In this ep and last. Too much side eye. You’d think they didn’t like children. Or didn’t understand them. Surely they know all kids aren’t perfectly happy little geniuses.

Anthony Picard

A reviewer (lorerunner) says all the time how she should have lost her powers, and I think the writers originally thought about it.

Anthony Picard

I worked at Walmart for one month in college, and had to quit because my car got stolen in the night right off my apartment lot. Luckily my parents let me borrow a car of theirs after a while. It was an 86 Buick regal with power locks and it was 2002 when it was stolen.

tyranusfan

I imagine that Geordi is used to Data abruptly asking him deep questions 😉

tyranusfan

Years watching humans in retail stores has taught me that no one reads signs. Ever. It’s bleeding over onto roads nowadays too.

Wrestling With Gaming

Dude, same thing happened to me. I've always thought this was a C at best, sometimes skipping it on rewatches, and this time it was an easy A for me. The kid actor even has some good scenes.

Greg Quinn

Not sure how I rated this and not really concerned enough to go back and look. But I feel like it's better than I remembered it being on the rewatch with you guys.

Greg Quinn

Two hair brushes for the "head grab hold him steady" bit. Which is s little odd in it's own right.

Ken R

This is better than the last one, and at least he is pleasant. In retrospect, the adding of live-in kids was a horrible mistake for the show, and even in narrative never made sense. They intentionally put kids in danger with a thinking that mirrors no thinking in real life. Anyone that has a kid would not subject them to the risks of living on a battleship just to make themselves feel better while they pursue their career. They needed to do a story where the Ent gets blown up, 300 kids die needlessly, and then someone calls them all idiots and rescinds that policy for the next ship.

Collin Freeman

@Column Meanie. That tracks. The play’s the thing. Let nothing stand in the way - even a pregnancy and newborn. The commerce of Hollywood.

Wrestling With Gaming

I love that this really shows is that "on the enterprise, no one is alone" line from Picard in The Bonding. Buuuut... TNG kid episodes > TOS kid episodes Qpid > any kids episode Man, I remember seeing this as a kid, probably reall close to his age, and thinking he was a crappy actor. Tbh, he's really not that bad at all as far as kid actors go. He should tutor Dorf. Also, you can see that Stewart's grown as a director here with some interesting shots in this one too. Though I don't get why data is using two hairbrushes at a time. The first time I saw this when it aired and I was a dumb kid, it was a C episode to me. Now that I'm a dumb adult, it's an A episode.

Column Meanie

Just watched an interview with Nana Visitor. There was no such thing as maternity leave for these women. They were expected to be back on set within a week of delivery. Gates raised her kid on the set.

Evan Guthrie

So you guys are... Bonding... on some kind of... Star Trek!

Evan Guthrie

A fun thing I realized upon this rewatch is, the harmonic amplification effect is a metaphor for Data and Timothy.

Justin B

That Troi line about being unable to tell if he's lying bugged me. This is yet another example of why her empathic powers are entirely unnecessary for her character to be good. It's a gimmick they have to keep nerfing for episodes to happen. When they ignore her powers, she's actually pretty decent. If you want to make things interesting, maybe have her call him out immediately for lying but he continues to double down. They find out early on that he's definitely lying so it doesn't make any sense.

Steven Johnson

@Nolan I mean that's one way to read it, but my read is that kids will always be kids. You aren't born into this world enlightened. You're born with very selfish and impulsive faculties that have to be taught away through parenting and school. Young children are still going to be dealing with that even in the 24th Century. We've already seen kids will respond as kids would in TNG with Lall scaring them, and that Alexander had issues in school as well, along with the two brothers in brothers, one of whom played a prank. That, to me, would signal that a human boy acting like a robot would probably get teased. Teasing is just part of growing up.

Collin Freeman

Yes, I kind of figured Gates' pregnancy was the reason (or giving her time after the birth to spend with her child). Nevertheless, her character is noticeably absent from this season, but hers is not the only one.

Collin Freeman

I think they should have just permanently had Deanna lose her empathic abilities in The Loss. That whole "I sense they are angry" across hundreds of miles of space, or even right next to her, got old for me real quick. Plus, as you point out, it created a stumbling block for the writers: "How do we get around this when Troi can sense how they really feel?" "We'll just write her out of this episode."

Nolan

Lol. That was a funny reaction moment for me. "No, Josh, you got it." 🤣

Nolan

I dunno why, but I personally never viewed schoolyard bullying as a thing in the Trekverse. Like kids are in a society that is all about exploring and embracing the different, why would they attack that? Maybe that's just part of the escapist fantasy for me?

Josh (Target Audience)

I worked at Walmart for 6 months when I turned 18. Would never again.

Ron Hubbard Jr

Season 5 goes a little overboard with the kid-focused shows.

Tom Occhipinti

I forgot about that. Tough to film her doing much of anything when you have to avoid filming evidence of her pregnancy.

Tom Occhipinti

A shame. If it was due to not coming up with ideas, that’s pathetic. If it was due to wanting to sideline her, that was foolish.

Tom Occhipinti

It’s a B.

Jon1701

Yeah I’m fairly certain they gave her time off this season.

Jon1701

I enjoyed this episode more than I thought I would. It’s pretty slight but always enjoyed it as a kid. Kid was better than I thought as well.

Joe Green

I rated this one C tier in the poll based off my memory of it, but after this watch along I appreciate a lot of aspects of the ep I hadn't previously noticed. It's a B+ or A- now, based on the solid direction and performances. Good reaction, fellas. Thanks.

Sherpa Jones

Ooh, the second half of this season is gonna be lit!

Nolan

Regarding the trauma episodes... I have a doozy of one to talk about later, lemme tell ya.

Nolan

Not sure if you guys have worked much time if at all in retail, but my experiences have told me that yes, sometimes the obvious spelling-outs ARE needed. 5 signs pointing out the Self-Checkouts can't take cash, and yet without fail everyday, someone tries. Still better than the modern trend of repeating plot points and explanations 5 minutes later for goobers on their phones throughout the show. Now THAT is annoying.

Scarpad’s Domain

To be fair was she pregnant at this point

Scarpad’s Domain

This is one of my main disliked episodes mainly for the kid they cast who is beyond awful

THE LORE!!!

This episode is the epitome of one that I forget exists, enjoy it while watching it and then forget it exists again shortly thereafter. It might just be that this part of s5 is just so.. middling? Thankfully, there are some bangers in the latter half of the season.

Geoffrey Linehan

As I’m watching you debate the ratings, here’s my thought. I’m not advocating that you do this. I’m just contemplating perhaps a more objective way of rating these. Scrap the tier system. How well did the episode explore its subject matter and theme? Interest-wise, I could watch this once before wanting to move to something else. That’s purely because the subject matter doesn’t fascinate me as much. It should not affect my estimation of the quality of the episode, though.

Lovok

I'm right in between you guys on this one. B for me. Not the most exciting or interesting episode, but the writing is quite good and surprisingly tender at times. Enjoy the character shades it brings out of Data and Troi. Just an overall "good" episode.

Steven Johnson

My biggest issue here is with Troi. She's doing fine for the most part, but the unfortunate reality is her abilities are just a stumbling block that writers have to work around, and here it's like... The kid is lying, and she just... cna't figure it out. For some reason. Him being emotional is a cop out, she deals with people who are emotional all the time. That's her fucking POWER. So that part is ridiculous. The other thing that is absolutely dated to the time is the new-age pseudo-psychology of "Let the person explore their delusional state." That is absolutely *not* a healthy way to deal. More often than not, most people do not come back out of those states without help and being made to confront reality. Yes, it hurts. The hurt is part of the process of healing, though. You have to feel your emotions to be able to get passed them and into the next stage. Especially in a child, it can lead to a corrosive form of social dysfunction. Imagine the kids at school, for example, when confronted with Timothy acting like a dork. Kids are going to make fun of him for that, which is going to cause him to be more a-social. Which is going to feed the delusion. Which is going to lead to even more reclusivness. It's just not a good place for Troi to start. Strongest aspects of the episode are definitely the four main scenes with Data and Timothy. The kid does a servicable job, I wager he struggled with the moments where heavy emotion is required, but Staewart's direction does a good job of leaning on the adults in those scenes to keep the pressure off the kid.

Column Meanie

Pulaski had more to do in 1 season than Crusher had to do in S4 and S5. They just had no idea how to write her once they dropped her connection with Picard and Wesley left.

Steven Johnson

Yeah, the lying thing is a bit of a forced red herring. The typical "He's hiding something" which leads you to think he's an alien imposter, or something. Then, it turns out, there's no reason for her not to be able to detect. It's why Troi as a character is just a failure for me. Her character, by definition, betrays a major screenwriting guideline - show, don't tell. She is exactly the opposite, and it never worked for me. That being said, if she had just been a human being, I think almost all of those issues would have been avoided. Her empathic abilities were always spotty, inconsistent, and seldom useful, because the writers didn't know where the line was. This episode is a prime example of that. Still, everything with Data here is great.

Column Meanie

She literally says that she can’t sense he’s lying but it’s likely because he’s in shock.

Collin Freeman

Jonathan Frakes has said in at least 1 interview I've seen that all of the directors, especially him and Stewart, loved it when they got a Data episode to direct because they were generally so rich and easy thanks to Brent Spiner.

Darren Seal

Probably poorly placed in the season, directly after New Ground, but I don’t mind this one, it’s kinda charming B or C nothing too offensive but nothing stand out.

Paul Hess

I enjoy lots of individual scenes in this episode, but the overall affect is still a little so-what for me.

Phillip Grischa

Why not name the show? He played Christopher Ewing on Dallas, I loved that show as a kid. I was definitely not the target audience but my sister and I would watch reruns of Dallas, Knots Landing and Falcon Crest all the time in the 90s. Melrose Place was another favorite but we watched that one when it premiered. Oh the episode ... Hero Worship was okay I guess, I'm sitting on the fence between a B or a C.

Fishing Trip

She starts off being able to sense people infront of her, then on the ship, then an alien ship floating miles away, finally being able to sense emotions of people on a planets surface while the enterprise is 250 miles away in high orbit. 🤦

Jonathan

The kid that played Timothy had just got done on a hit drama series when they made this. When they wanted to do a reunion movie for that show five years later this kid was no longer working as an actor so they cast the kid from Future Imperfect to replace him.

Jovet

I think I rated this one a D. On my Worst 20 TNG list.

Jovet

Riker's already been through the wringer. That's why he gets a pass.

Keith S

Well, that was anice way to spend my Sunday morning.

Jovet

But he was lying, and she didn't sense it. The writing of Troi was rather poor in this episode. Encouraging Timothy to bury his emotions though his "android persona" is not something a psychologist would encourage.

Josef Nitervol

It's a B episode for sure imo

Aramis Calcutt

The palette an artist uses is called an artist’s palette. Or a paint palette. Usually just a palette.

Tony B

Star Trek has a weirdly strong tendency of characters to get close with orphans through some kind of Bonding...

AzoriusMage

Pretty mid, c+ because it featured data

Collin Freeman

My vote for most improved character this season: Deanna Troi. Most under used characters this season: tie between Geordi and Beverly, with honorable mention to Will Ryker.