Post "UNCUT - Violations (TNG S5E12) | Star Trek Journey 219" by "Target Audience" from patreon

Lyric

Not spoiling anything but fans knows what colm meany doing right now.

Darren Seal

I’m not sure it’s burnout their opinions on s5 are a bit similar to mine. It starts great but it has a really mediocre run. I’ve always felt it was a step down in quality on s4 and s3.

Timothy Nikiforovs

I think C is about right for this one. It does some things quite well and others not so much. It's not the kind of episode I think most people are thinking of years later like BOBW or Darmok or Drumhead. Still, rape isn't a subject many shows outside Law & Order SVU tend to want to tackle much, particularly back in the early 90s, so props to TNG for going there. Given we've encountered several telepathic species at this point in Trek, it was worth exploring what it looks like when telepathy is used, well, to violate someone. Even though that was done in the line of duty to get critical intel, there were definitely some of those vibes in the mind meld with Valeris in TUC. Also would Troi's mom reading people's thoughts uninvited and then airing them to anyone in earshot be considered telepathic harassment? Bottom line, given how few of the crew were willing to volunteer for this memory probe, and with the obvious security threats of telepaths, I have a hard time believing they haven't developed something akin to Magneto's helmet that can block telepaths by the 24th century. Best scene in the episode is Worf effortlessly giving Jev the smackdown and handing his limp body off to the other security guy like a bag of garbage. Overall though, this really is a pretty weak stretch of the show, but better times lie ahead.

Timothy Nikiforovs

I'm sorry?

Timothy Nikiforovs

I don't get them with Trek, but they screw up my syncs with The Expanse all the time.

Timothy Nikiforovs

Yeah, people have been asking that for 3 years. Wouldn't get your hopes up

Chris S.

I was just hoping we could have you guys talk less during the episodes. Thats what the discussion is for. Granted, Ive seen most of these, so usually I dont care. But I probably haven’t seen this one in 15 years, so I was trying to remember the mystery and how they solved it. At crucial dialogue, I missed it. Just a request if you guys could limit the chatting during the episode. It would help us out as well. A win-win perhaps.

Ian Westcott

It's not the first time that we've had to ask "so did Riker actually sexually assault that woman?"

Ian Westcott

Yeah, Season 5 is a bit of a letdown from the awesomeness of Season 4. A few of my favorite episodes in the whole series are from S5, but god, does this season ever slump in the middle.

Darin Starr

I'm watching this on Paramount Plus with commercials and I'm disappointed every time there's a commercial break and you aren't with me roasting how stupid the ads are. So I'm doing it for you.

Sainjl

Yeah, I agree. These are not the best episodes of the series. Half of the episodes in S5 are pretty mid. I felt their reactions were fair. I think moving up to 3 would be good because they’re going to reach DS9 soon, since they are watching in air date order. And half of that first season are also pretty mid. The more eps they do, the better.

Aaron Wells

I don't think that's true. That's not what makes STVI fun. But its definitely a factor in what makes it interesting.

Paul

I don't think they took offense to making that note of allegory. More that a lot of people expect them to enjoy a movie or episode purely because of the allegory and not on the actual plot and execution.

Paul

The last few episodes have been pretty average, they've enjoyed them about to the degree that I expected (enjoying the Masterpiece society even more than expected actually), so I don't get that sense from you that they're burnt out. Not from 2 or 3 episodes a week. Hell, back in my youth I'd binge entire seasons at a time and never felt overwhelmed.

Mr Moxie

Honestly, idk if I want them to hit the goal. Or rather idk if I want them to do 3 a week. They already seem a bit burnt out on the show and enjoying it less as a result. I don't think they are being biased in an unfair way, but I know that even with my favorite show ever, if I'm required to watch too much of it, I will enjoy it less. Anyway, I do wish them success, but I also hope they are able to get back into really enjoying eps .I'm not saying they are trying not to, I just worry there's a little bit of burnout hurting their enjoyment. But maybe I'm wrong.

Shortskirtsandexplosions

The only thing I like about this episode is the bitch slap Worf delivers at the end. I can think of several pieces of media that is difficult to watch because of the subject matter. But when that difficult subject matter is delivered in a "meh" or pathetic way, I'm even less incentivized to watch it. I wouldn't have returned to this episode if it wasn't for this channel, and I thank you two for milking some enjoyment out of it.

Ron Hubbard Jr

TNG as a series worked hard to maintain continuity and provide little touches of it every now and then like bringing Doug Wert back for one shot. I really appreciate that but when continuity is not maintained, such as the appearance of certain characters when depicting them from the same time period, it is really disappointing. I know that doesn’t make a lot of sense yet, but it will.

tyranusfan

Data can’t perform mind melds that might have been used to find out the truth about Troi’s attack

Ron Hubbard Jr

The Sarcasm is strong with this one… 😂

harrypothead42024

The Suffering is about to begin. That unnamed crew member must have opened a puzzle box or something

Ron Hubbard Jr

Shades of Grey 2.0 and the first one was better.

harrypothead42024

In every single way

Ron Hubbard Jr

The only two good things about this episode: seeing Stargazer-era Picard (with hair!) and they brought back the same actor, Doug Wert, to play Jack Crusher.

Paul

Windows is superior.

Column Meanie

Don’t take others’ insecurity personally.

AzoriusMage

Like a pro assessed the situation then acted definitively

Daniel Calcagno

Hope you reach the goal. Getting a Mac Studio or even a newer Mac Mini will be a game changer for you in terms of video editing/rendering.

EnigmaticPenguin

I've heard Marina Sirtis has gotten very emotional discussing her career prior to TNG at conventions and it rescuing her from her horrible niche at Canon Films. She might poke fun at how little she has to do sometimes, but she always struck me as someone very grateful for the life Star Trek gave her.

Chris Mickelson

Does this mean that Riker raped (or nearly raped) Troi? Or was that a perversion of a genuine intimate moment? This question sits in the back of my mind and makes Riker 10% more sus to me

Jovet

LOL!

Jovet

Why? Data fits that bill.

Collin Freeman

Yes he was. Quite the busy actior. The Commitments is a personal favorite of mine, but that would have wrapped before this season started.

paultardspambot .

NOTE- Serious subject matter. On the subject brought up of what should/should not be depicted, there's of course featuring an idea and execution. There's often a sentiment that things shouldn't be gratuitous. The social conversation about this in terms of rape is an interesting one. Here I think we are talking about taboos. The thing with taboos is that there is usually an original valid purpose that then gets extended and taken literally instead of recalling the underlying rational for it. A few examples- People are probably familiar with the Monty Python scene where they are stoning people for saying Jehovah. I think the original taboo was "don't say the lord's name in vain", as in, "God damn it!" or such, using the name of god as a curse or to express anger. You get that as a taboo, then it gets extended literally to don't say the name at all. This is a controversial one, but I think this also applies to slurs. The reason not to use racial slurs is obvious, it is an ugly expression of racism. However, the extension becomes that the word itself is a taboo, even when it's not being used to express hatred like in an academic discussion about words. There is an argument that just hearing or readinf the word is inherently traumatic, but if people see "the x word" or letters with blanks, they immediately know what the word is. With sexual assault, the general argument is that the subject shouldn't be the cause for amusement/entertainment, and that over expression of it will desensitize people to its horror. I get the idea that a joke's punchline shouldn't be "someone got sexually assaulted" (however oddly enough people seem fine with this when its used in the context of prison rape) but as far as the other stuff, when you really think about it, it means that other forms of violence ARE acceptable as entertainment... and this is so clearly the case it's kind of weird to think about. In a sense, shouldn't the argument be the same for any form of violence? That we shouldn't be entertained by it and that exposure to it might desensitize us to it. I sort of recall there was an argument like this at one point, but its gone by the wayside.

paultardspambot .

I could imagine Sirtis as Yar. Think season 1 Troi when she was very formal and a bit stiff and alien.

paultardspambot .

So as I and others have mentioned, it does seem like TNG has a bit of drag in this part of the season, probably the pinnacle of what people call "Decaf Trek" Since I didn't originally watch these in order I didn't notice, but I wonder if the production of Star Trek 6 drew resources from TNG. It does get better after the next episode though.

paultardspambot .

In my head canon, he was bald from a young age but used medical tech to give him some hair, then said eh, whatever

Aaron Wells

I'm sure there were. Like I said, it's well known, and for a long time. But it's still being mocked even now. I don't understand why it seems to generate such an ongoing negative response. It was just Trek doing Trek things. It was nothing new...yet it generates derisiveness.

Nolan

I think it's that there were many, MANY comments saying the same thing. Not just you.

paultardspambot .

While Troi's violation was sexual, you could argue the other two were also a form of rape, as Jett when asked about why His father would do this said "a perverse thrill from a sense of control" It's often said rape is about power, not sex (I mean, I think it is about sex but the people who do it are turned on by overpowering someone in many cases) so even though its not a sexual memory with Riker or Crusher, he's still "getting off" so to speak by the power he has over them in that time. Yes, he targets them for specific reasons, but he is a serial violator so obviously this s his thing. It also seems a motivation was to frame his father, as its established early he dislikes him. I think in a way it makes the final scene with Troi all the more disturbing because from his pov, he's gotten away with it, he's framed his father, but seeing Troi he gets that creepy itch and does it again when it's clearly not in his best interest. Or maybe he could do the same thing again, I don't know, and say his father was doing it. But the other times the people were caught off guard, the last time Troi realized what was going on and was able to fight it off, maybe because she's half betazoid.

Aaron Wells

I'm sorry. The writing of The Undiscovered County was absolutely an allegory for the end of the Cold War. Its not like its something I made up. It's well known, and has been for decades. I didn't mean to offend you by pointing it out. Jeez. Sorry. I just thought it interesting. I didn't mean anything by it. I don't understand what was so bad about pointing out that Trek is and always was topical. I don't get why its such an offensive thing. :(

paultardspambot .

So I think the idea with the twist was you weren't sure if it had been Jett, or if his father had been the one doing it while looking like his son. You guys got that he was framing his father right away, but I remember feeling ambiguity, was he framing his father or had his father been framing him? I think that's supposed to be the idea, so when we see him in Troi's quarters it's like "uh oh"

paultardspambot .

As far as them probing each other, they made it clear they required consent for someone to probe a memory, which seems like it would apply to the SPECIFIC memory they allowed them to probe, so probing each other to uncover something would not be something they believe is ethical. Like, I assume it is an important rule in their society, and it wouldn't be used for criminal investigations. This makes sense as their world had not had any kind of forced probing for centuries, so the consensual nature of would be a big deal. Also, while the humans can't resist their probing, they themselves might be able to. Most of them are used to doing this with the willing participation of the subject, Tett was a serial violator so he had experience with this.

Scarpad’s Domain

Hold on wrong ep

ageric

Would I watch a football game if I knew the outcome, Alex? No, but I'll point out that I'll watch a great wrestling match even knowing who wins. Sometimes there's quality in the execution of the journey. Not necessarily this time, but sometimes!

Derek Orr

What about her makeup? I did not notice it being any different

Derek Orr

Yes and no. TNG era shows spent a lot of behind the scenes time doing deep dives on writers bibles and tech manuals etc. some of the newer shows clearly just make it up

Derek Orr

Worf looked pretty meh and unenthusiastic and slow to get involved when walking in on the fight at first lol

Nerd's Gold

More than just Under Siege. He made several movies in 1991-92 (The Commitments, Far and Away, The Last of the Mohicans). He was a busy man around this time.

Evan Guthrie

Honestly, I had forgotten the plot of the episode, and thought the twist was the other way around, so I was pretty surprised at the ending. Do you think you would have enjoyed it more if it were a double twist?

Nolan

Having just finished the whole series (Columbo Like the Nightlife was a TRIP lemme tell ya) I think half the time the Columbo writers didn't quite know how to write the series. "Murder by the Book" is probably my most well remembered episode, which does not speak well to it being the first one. That said, there are a number I look back on fondly.

tyranusfan

Would have been helpful if they had a Vulcan on the crew…

Evan Guthrie

Any episode that makes a reference to Shades of Gray is a bad one.

Josh (Target Audience)

Explain to her that we also talk about stuff

captveg

You definitely have to have a grasp on creating tension if you let the audience in on information the characters don't have. I wonder how the guys would handle a Columbo episode...

Wrestling With Gaming

This episode is both better and worse than I remembered. I give it both an A and a D+, depending on what scene is happening. It's constantly up and down for me. I do think the guy that played jev did a decent job.

Wrestling With Gaming

Are you telling me it's not an announced patreon perk?!

penoyer79

you guys liked this one more than i thought you would. i'd love to upgrade from my legacy but my wife would decapitate me for spending $10 a month to watch people watch stuff

jon bolton

I think i gave this a B on your tier grade originally, but after seeing it again just now i'm changing it to A. I forgot how brilliant Marina in particular is in this one. Obviously it's a dark topic, but she in particular played it great. There are many other moments i love too with other members of the crew. It was only about 2 months ago i last watched this, how bad is my memory, forgetting how much I love it?

Tony B

Seeing this decades ago I always saw it as him framing his father he didn't like

Column Meanie

True but in those days there wasn’t nearly the amount of canon there is today.

Paul

Poor "unknown character". They suffer so much! ;)

Paul

Appreciate the triple drop this week, noice!

THE LORE!!!

Thanks for the much-needed correction. Couldn't imagine anyone even understood what I meant beforehand.

Collin Freeman

Btw, Marina Sirtis' accent as Troi is fake. She did that with the idea that being raised on Betazed, she would have an accent. If you haven't noticed already, it gradually disappears over the course of the series.

Collin Freeman

Colm Meaney may have been jumping back and forth between TNG and appearing in Under Seige during this time period, and that's why we don't see him as often in season 5.

Ee'char

Imzadi

Ricky

One small critique on your after episode discussions. I feel like the camera should be raised a little higher than ball's height 😂

harrypothead42024

I just Upgraded

The Travelers Travels

In a future series (no spoilers) when they needed to save money,(without crazy effects) they'd write an episode of which came to be known as "unnamed (here) character Suffers episode"...which kinda sux for the character, which is one we all love, but adds to their lore, and connection to the person

Prof Moff

Well a bit of bad timing..... YEAH we are celebrating the milestone patreon member count. YIPPPEEE!!!!!............................... now here is one of the biggest down-er episodes in the whole franchise. (yeah?)

AzoriusMage

Action hero Deanna and a killer hit from Worf :)

AzoriusMage

That uniform is great for the butt

AzoriusMage

Riker has been accused one too many times and it is getting suspicious

Michael Metrick

But they all had to comply with the established Star Trek canon. ... at least in those days. 🙄

Josh (Target Audience)

I think Star Trek 6 made it really obvious they had little to no intermingling lol

Michael Metrick

Knowing more than the characters is one of Alfred Hitchcock's vehicles of suspense. Of course it must be handled expertly.

Michael Metrick

Another episode that keeps your mind active, but completely forgettable afterwards. A co-writer, Shari Goodhartz, also wrote "The Most Toys" ... She's my buddy's cousin, fwiw.

Jovet

Some of us are pretty poor right now.

Column Meanie

Not sure if this has ever been pointed out here. The people who made the TOS movies and the team making TNG were completely separate from one another. Even though they are both Star Trek and they did have a few crew members crossing over, all of the production decisions were made completely independent of one another. The only time we saw any collaboration between the two was during the production of ST6 by having Worf’s grandfather appear in the film and Spock appear and mention the peace treaty with the Klingons in “Unification”.

Narnman

i like the legacy tier it feels nostalgic and special

Jovet

Her makeup?

Jovet

41:00 You're supposed to be fooled into believing the father was guilty and was framing the son.

Tom

Thanks, upgraded! Hope you get to your target! Cheers for the response 👍

Josh (Target Audience)

Thanks Tom, the currently available Audience Member tier (which I believe is 8.50 for you) is where it would start to count towards the goal. Any of the currently available tiers.

Jovet

And this episode is how we can be pretty sure that Riker and Deanna are not porking.

THE LORE!!!

Hey, did you guys know that Imzada means beloved? 😜

Alan Thompson

As they have the 24th century equivalent of the nuclear launch codes in their heads, nobody in starfleet would be allowed anywhere near telepaths.

James Baloun

Picard with his command responsibility and the way he guards his personal life would never volunteer for the proposed memory retrieval. They did not touch on the proposal from the perspective of Picard's Borg trauma but the Borg will forever haunt Picard.

Tom

Hi Josh, Watching here In the UK, our pricing bands are a little different. I’m on the £4.50 Legacy tier, is the upgrade your seeking to the £8.50 Audience tier, or is it only the £15.50 target demographic tier (or higher) upgrade that would count towards your goal? Wanna chip in and do my part, your content is awesome and worth every penny, but equally there are only so many pennies to go round 😅 Cheers for the extra episode, and for having me along on the journey, thoroughly enjoy watching your reactions!

Jovet

I thought he was fine.

Joe Concepts

Yep, Josh, I'm in that category of "I don't want to watch that" with those kinds of scenes.

Tony B

Troi Must Suffer

Josh (Target Audience)

No worries

EnigmaticPenguin

Jack Crusher the corpse had a less stiff performance than in "Family".

Julie Carter

I didn't realize updating my membership would impact the goal progress, so I have now promoted myself to Bridge Crew :P

Paul Rymer

I love the visuals and sound FX in this one albeit it ends up disturbing

Paul Rymer

Thank you for the update. Get on board everyone!

Dan Here

That's a good news. Sorry i'm working hard for my retirement in two years, can't afford to upgrade right now 😭

Matthew Ganz

Surprise extra episode this week! I would give this episode a B- it's Star Trek again dealing with social issues such as rape, violence and controlling personalities. It does it best when it doesn't preach, but instead makes you think -- this later part wasn't done as well in this episode I felt that the B plot was fairly well tied to the A plot although it was a bit loose. Some great episodes coming up soon -- keep up the great reactions!