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The Nature of Predators 2-36
🕑 Added 2024-05-09 11:00:08 +0000 UTCMemory Transcription Subject: Elias Meier, Former UN Secretary-General
Date [standardized human time]: July 13, 2160
The irritability coursing through my psyche was palpable. Every sound was dialed up to eleven, stabbing at the core of my sensory processing. Constant awareness grated on me after days without sleep, never having any break from the stream of information I needed to digest. There was no way to shut the world off and reset, and no reprieve from the unsettling reality of my physical experience. I was curled up in a ball on the floor, rocking back and forth; I wasn’t sure how much longer I could go on like this.
Virnt scuttled over to me in the spaceship, jostling my shoulder. “Elias? Would you like to turn back from this mission?”
I remembered how I’d spent most of the trip, standing under the water in the shower. There was a special shampoo they’d provided for synthetic hair, like a wig. I held out my phony hand and emptied most of the bottle’s worth of goop, zoning out; I was trying to soak in the distant sensation of liquid running down my spine. Once upon a time, this had been the most relaxing time of my day—letting muscle tension fade away and cleansing grimy skin oils. Now, I knew neither of those two still existed in my day-to-day life to assuage.
Did it even matter to slap soap on some metal frame? There were no consequences of letting hygiene go by the wayside. I didn’t sweat in order to start to reek, and I couldn’t get skin conditions or be affected by bacteria. It could be that I was bathing out of habit, clinging to my old lifestyle, that I kept going to wash up. Perhaps the shower had become my favorite haunt because I felt disgusting in this body. Everything was a reminder that I was an inhuman scrap pile, and it was wearing on my sanity. It wasn’t like anyone related to what I was going through.
I used to spend so much time fussing over making my suits look crisp and perfect—immaculate ties, UN pins adjusted just right. The heavy jackets would trap my body heat in the summer; now, it no longer had that effect. I could bundle up as much as I wanted in 40 degree Celsius heat, unless there was some limit that would fry my circuits. Shit, I might not need a spacesuit in the vacuum of space—I couldn’t freeze or suffocate, after all. Being left out in the void for all eternity didn’t sound that much different from my present experience.
I hate what I’ve become. I hate what they’ve done to me; all I do is think, and every part of my new self lives in the uncanny valley. There’s nothing positive. Maybe it’s time to call it…death was better than this. I can’t bear another day of this hell.
“Hey, stay with me! Distractibility, depression, being unable to maintain concentration—these are natural consequences of sleep deprivation. I’m surprised it carries over without a physical mechanism to grow tired…but I’m working on a sleep suite, I promise,” Virnt said, glossy eyes staring at me.
I groaned. “I’m not tired, but it’s just nonstop. I…I’m having trouble remembering what I read.”
“Here, I’m going to try a temporary fix. You look like you need it. I don’t want you to suffer; just turning you off and on isn’t the same. I’m going to emulate GABA, uh, shut off your optic sensors, decrease the activity in your prefrontal cortex, and simulate delta waves for an hour. We can see if it somewhat fills the need for deep sleep, okay? Relaxation, no processing: worth a shot, right?”
I nodded mutely, staying in the fetal position. I didn’t have the will to move, and I didn’t want to get my hopes up that Virnt’s plan would be any mercy. The sensation of the Tilfish tinkering with my settings was strange, as if my brain was being overridden in the moment. There was no process of falling asleep to give it the air of naturalness. Suddenly, I was blind, trapped in darkness—and a modicum of drowsiness kicked in, limiting my movement. Thoughts died down, offering much-need relief; I faintly wished I could remain in this state.
When I came to, there was a sudden influx of information as the rest mode was switched off; it was hardly a seamless waking, but I’d take it. Peace in my own head was something I’d never take for granted again. I hadn’t thought myself to be a weak-minded individual, but I hadn’t realized how much it wore on you: feeling out of place in your own body every waking second, and not trusting your senses. Brain function had been restored enough that I could get a grip on myself, and rise in my disheveled state. A peek out the window revealed we’d completed our intra-atmosphere transit to the Duerten embassy.
I rubbed my eyes on reflex, but there were no gifts from the Sandman there. “Why couldn’t you have just added everything to start with, Virnt?”
“The humans I talked to said they wouldn’t want to sleep, unless they had to! I put the most focus on your emotional matrix and your facial expressiveness, since I thought that has the highest importance of what makes you human,” the Tilfish replied.
“You could’ve made it at least optional.”
“I sent the option to your holopad for the future, to trigger this program for as long as you’d like. This is a learning process, so I’m sorry for anything that’s off. All trial and error here, but it’s only going to get better! That’s the positive.”
“There are a lot of patches needed. For starters, you’re missing two of the senses: taste and smell. In spite of that, ever since I walked past the Terra Technologies staff eating tater tots, I’ve been craving them at random intervals. I’m not hungry—I can’t consume food!”
“Predator instincts,” Virnt teased. “The Federation was right.”
“I’m serious! Why on Earth would that be a thing? I literally can’t satisfy it, so it’s almost cruel.”
“It’s psychological, Elias. I looked into it after I saw it in your transcript. When humans are under a lot of stress or otherwise feeling down, you seek dopamine from food. It’s something familiar that activated your memories, and promised emotional comfort. That’s why you have the phrase ‘comfort food.’”
“I can already see how the Federation remnants would spin that. A predator’s so-called emotions are tied to food, and stimulate appetite to fulfill their whims.”
“You seem in better spirits. To add to your improved mood, we announced the success of your memory transplant to the world. The response was overwhelmingly positive—history looked back fondly on you. You got a lot of well-wishes, and I was able to get almost all of your social media re-activated. At least, the platforms that are still active.”
“I’m…allowed to share my honest experiences?”
Virnt eased me out of the shuttle, into the sunlight; cameras were waiting, causing me to stiffen. “Of course you can. I’m not here to muzzle you, my friend. Quite the opposite, in fact: I want your experiment documented as thoroughly as possible! You’re the spokesperson for—”
I shielded my face from the reporters, who were lobbing questions. “What is this? I don’t have a prepared statement. This is an ambush.”
“Terra Technologies has a mission of transparency, and improving sapients’ quality of life through digital means. We had to announce such a monumental breakthrough, but you’re under no obligation to speak with them.”
“Good,” a warm voice chimed in from next to me, making me jump. “The poor guy’s come back from the dead, Virnt. Give him a break. He’s here to speak with the Duerten Forum and their ambassador, for some semblance of his old life.”
I turned my head, beaming as I recognized her. “Erin? Oh, sorry: that’s Secretary-General Kuemper, isn’t it? You’ve moved up in the world. The United Nations is in good hands.”
“It’s good to see you, Elias. I bawled my eyes out at your funeral. You cared so much for peace and taking the high road; there isn’t a person out there who could’ve handled first contact with more grace. You inspired me, and an entire generation of future diplomats.”
I embraced Erin, who’d once been a passionate SETI researcher giving me all of the bad news about aliens. As we flailed about in the dark to save humanity and adjust to the galaxy, finally acquiring a few friends, she’d become my Secretary of Alien Affairs. I’d trusted her to do whatever it took to stabilize our extraterrestrial relations. It was a bit of a relief to see a positive reaction from someone I knew; I wasn’t sure how my friends would take my return, but I hadn’t been expecting a welcome with open arms. It brought me solace and comfort to know about the legacy I’d left behind, and the ripple effects my tenure had on the United Nations.
It is strange to see how much she’s aged. That’ll be the reality of anyone that used to be an acquaintance of mine.
The alarm bells pinging in my head faded into the backdrop, and I forgot that the wind gusting against my face only felt like a dull push. My mind slipped away from food cravings that failed to get my mouth to water, how there was no feeling of tightness from my dress shoes, and the stillness of my non-existent diaphragm. I was simply happy to see someone I cared about and enjoyed working with, in my old life. There was safety in having a person I trusted to be on my side. My brain snapped back into diplomat mode, falling into a familiar flow of conversation. If I had nothing else, I still had my social skills—an ability to navigate various cultures.
“So the Duerten Forum agreed to meet with the two of us. They know about the Sivkit attack, but not the full threat,” I spoke aloud, after breaking away from the rather soul-affirming embrace. “I read the strategy meetings for briefing them, and I’m on-board to appeal to nostalgia; humanity saving their homeworld was after my time, but close enough to it that I could serve as a reminder. A blast from the past.”
Erin nodded, her security forming a wall between us and the cameras as we walked toward the embassy. “I always wondered what you’d think of modern Vienna, Elias. All of the aliens willing to be here on our world, and to treat us like people. Friendship used to seem like a pipe dream; we were happy if they’d allow us to exist, tolerate us to that extent. Look at us now.”
“I almost gave up hoping that they could care about us, or stand beside us at all. We couldn’t do it alone then. It’s time we remember to stand together—to rise to the occasion once more. I can’t bear the thought of anything threatening our home, or our friends. I saw enough needless death twenty-four years ago.”
“That pain is a lot more recent to you. It’s completely okay to be wrestling with grief. A billion of ours died.”
“We didn’t become the monsters they thought we were, and we pulled through. We revealed their hatred and treachery, and have chosen a future set on rectifying every right they trampled. I’ll always mourn what we lost, but I’ve never been more proud of humanity in my life.”
Kuemper patted my shoulder. “You sound like yourself, my dear old friend. It’s very good to have you back; you were much better at smiling while they spit in your face than I ever was. Let’s do what’s necessary to get the ball rolling with the Shield.”
“I’m right behind you.”
The exterior of the Duerten embassy had a distinct construction style, with metal and concrete forming the bulk of the outside structure; on Kalqua, sturdiness was at the foremost of their priorities. Winds on a normal day could ratchet up to what we’d consider a tropical storm, according to my brief review of their culture. The door was evidently heightened to facilitate foot traffic from humans, despite the exit hatches on the upper floor which seemed frequented by the avian staff. Their personnel could literally fly away during an emergent situation. I tailed Kuemper into the lobby, and noted how much of the inside’s floor was concrete as well. It was resilient and easy to clean, a perfect surface to avoid being marred by talons.
Most of the gray avians used perches instead of chairs, with several staffers working on paperwork at their desks; in private areas, some met with any humans who had business with the Duerten Forum. The lack of reaction to a predator’s approach was new to me, but a welcome change. Kuemper confidently led the way to an elevator, which had the English and German words for “Welcome to the Duerten embassy!” written above the opening. The generic Shield logo was painted on both sides of the door, and emblazoned with a representation of Kalqua. There were no buttons inside, apart from an emergency exit; a camera surveyed us, before a watching staffer summoned the car upward. I felt a jolt as we reached the top floor.
“To be visited by two Secretary-Generals: one of whom is a ghost! Let me express the Duerten Forum’s honor and delight. Not, of course, that I don’t cherish Ambassador Hannah Marston’s visits.” A silver-feathered head poked out of a door at the end of the hallway, past a spacious lounge; his beak was the precise yellow of corn. “Please, come in. Make yourselves at home. Can I get you anything to drink?”
Kuemper shuffled forward, giving me a knowing look. “Water would be lovely for me. Thank you for the warm welcome, Ambassador Korajan.”
“I second that gratitude. Enchanted to meet you. I’m sure you know, but I’m Elias Meier.” Taking a gamble that the ambassador was more than acquainted with our customs, I extended a hand. Korajan strode forward with confidence, ensnaring my palm in his wingtip. “We appreciate you taking the time to sit with us, Ambassador.”
“Just Korajan,” the avian said, feeling my artificial hand with undeniable curiosity. He finally released my grip, and waited for us to get seated. “There’s no need for formalities, especially when I’m in such esteemed company. What can I do for you?”
“We’ve come to seek your assistance in the fight against the Sivkits’ assailants. The Sapient Coalition needs allies to back us against these menaces,” Kuemper stated. “Any help we can get would make a difference.”
“I see. I heard about your unfortunate defeat in your prior engagement, but I don’t see how it involves or concerns us. The Duerten, as you well know, aren’t in the position we used to be. We’ve turned our focus inward for years, shoring up our defenses to watch out for our beloved planet. The potential benefit it might offer you is so negligible that it’s hardly worth increasing our vulnerability. The risk far outweighs the rewards for any party.”
I studied the avian, careful to avoid a direct stare. “I understand that it’s a lot to ask. However, small bits of help from across the Shield can accumulate to be a massive difference maker. We want to stop this genocidal force from getting anywhere near Kalqua; if we play our cards right, you won’t need defenses.”
“Elias—sorry, may I call you Elias?” Korajan asked, continuing after I nodded. “We’re, of course, concerned to have a predatory species with such power and intentions, outside our known terrain. They bear a striking resemblance to the Arxur, and my government does appreciate the advance warning from the SC so we can make preparations. Yet the Forum is concerned by several of your recent initiatives, which would make us doubly unwilling to back your cause.”
“Go on. What initiatives have unsettled you?” I hope he doesn’t mean me, with resurrecting dead humans; that’d hit close to home, and I don’t know how to defend it. “Perhaps we can clear up our rationale and intentions, ensuring that there are no misunderstandings.”
“I hope I’m not impolite to point it out, but my government is beginning to see a pattern in your recent connections to carnivores. The Sapient Coalition is attempting an uplift on one race, despite what we all know happened on Wriss, and has brought them into your mix while they are at war with each other. We’re also aware of these Osirs—a race you are resurrecting to live among you, despite having no idea what they’re capable of. Present company excluded, species that need meat are not trustworthy types. These Osirs are weapons: look at the fangs.”
“Anything is a weapon in the wrong hands. Respectfully, we don’t feel that it’s right to judge a species for their diet. If I’m not mistaken, your own kind were once omnivores, Korajan.”
The Duerten fluttered his wings in acknowledgement. “The Federation changed us greatly—some things for the better, others to erase our intellect. We’re an individualist species, and they tried to make us…what do you humans call it? A ‘hive mind.’ Hive minds, of course, are fiction, yet they tried to make it real. Still, sometimes when you’re changed enough, it makes it impossible to go back to how things were.”
“I of all people grasp that sentiment,” I sighed, without moving an abdominal muscle, reflecting how my life would never be the same in this state. “We believe all sapients deserve a chance at life and happiness. Equality isn’t a principle we withhold based on any factor, and we don’t change species to fit our own whims.”
“This is why we’re content with our relations as is: separate, so we’re not connected to your disputes or obligated to get involved. The Duerten will always have differences between what are considered acceptable behaviors, and our guiding principles and overarching goals.”
Kuemper tapped her fingers on her knee. “Regardless, our choices with the Bissems and Osirs will have no impact or tangible effects on the Duerten. Nor is it a reason to shy away from protecting herbivores, the mandate that led you to stand up to the Federation in the past.”
“That cost us everything. Kalqua took a beating worse than Earth did. We don’t set out to attract the ire of powerful enemies these days.”
“We saved Kalqua. We were there when you needed our help to keep your innocents safe,” I reminded him, knitting my eyebrows with earnestness. “We answer when others call for our help to stay alive; the Duerten know what drives us to answer the bell. Isn’t that worth a smidge of reciprocation?”
“If Earth, or for that matter, Leirn were under siege, we would come. However, it appears to us that you entered their territory, not the other way around.”
“Think of the type of species…no, the kind of governments that would glass worlds. The old-school Arxur Dominion. The Kolshian shadow caste when they were defied. The Krakotl extermination fleet because they hated us. That’s what we see in the Osirs, and the gluttonous killing of Sivkit civilians while refusing to speak. We can’t turn a blind eye.”
“I’m sorry, Elias. Even if I wanted to help you, I don’t have the authority. I’m expressing my government’s position, and I’ve been told the Duerten Forum isn't going to war under any circumstances. I apologize that I can’t be of more use, and regret if you might feel your time has been squandered, leaving empty-handed.”
I shared a look with Kuemper, recognizing that we had been stonewalled; there was an implication in Korajan’s last statement that the discussion on this matter was over. The Forum hadn’t given him any negotiating room, so I didn’t get the sense I could do better than asking for him to take a message. If this was the most friendly party we’d be interacting with, I wasn’t off to a good start wrangling support for an alliance. There were a few other Shield races we could try, but an endorsement from the founders might’ve gotten the whole union on board. We had to find another angle—negotiating with the Fed remnants would be impossible without the Shield as an intermediary.
“Of course we don’t feel that way. The back-and-forth was enlightening, productive communication, as much as humanity would love to stand side-by-side in this endeavor,” I offered. “We appreciate you hearing us out, and do hope you’ll pass along our rationale to the Forum, for clarity.”
“I will,” the Duerten responded. “Your words, as always, deserve to be heard and treated with respect.”
Kuemper followed my lead, rising as I stood. “Korajan, I want you to know I deeply appreciate what you said about coming to Earth’s aid should we ever fall on hard times. That stood out to me, as a reason why our cooperation is so precious and beautiful.”
“I agree wholeheartedly. I do wish you the best of luck in your future engagements; my people hope you emerge victorious.”
“Thank you. Our door will always be open if you have a change of heart.”
In my mind, I had already vacated the Duerten embassy, but it was necessary to retrace my steps to depart the ambassador’s office. Aliens were much more diplomatic in rebuffing us now than in my era, which was the proper way to express disagreements between nations. It wasn’t lost on me that the differences in “behaviors” and “principles” Korajan meant were things such as hunting, omnivory, accepting carnivores, exterminators, and predator disease facilities. The Forum still clung to much of their old lifestyle; the gray avian had stated that some Federation changes were “for the better.” That was telling about how much of their ideology they’d yet to shed.
“Forgive my impertinence, but before you go, Elias…may I ask a personal inquiry? It’s not on my behalf of my government,” Korajan called, as our shoes cleared the threshold of his office.
I turned around, giving him an encouraging smile. “Of course. Go ahead.”
“What…what was it like? To die…to be dead?”
“It wasn’t like anything. It was a singularity of all outcomes: all I ever was, and all I ever could be, condensed to nothing. There are no words to describe emptiness and infinite rest. It’s a peace that knows no equal.”
The Duerten dipped his head. “Thank you. It gives me some…personal solace, to know…to know my daughter is resting peacefully. She died in so much pain after only a short period of remission. Ahem…if you’ll excuse me, I…”
“We’ll leave you in peace,” Kuemper replied, softness in her voice.
I folded my hands behind my back, mulling over the choked-up ambassador’s words. How could I let a few days of mental suffering defeat me, when kids suffered through such terrible diseases—never getting to reach adulthood? This program could give children like Korajan’s daughter a chance to grow up, and be a kid, free from pain. As soon as I was alone, I knew I’d be cast back into a maddening state of consciousness, with my brain struggling to stay tethered to this reality. Where I’d been ready to give up before Virnt’s quick fix, the avian’s story made me want to remain in the fight.
The Tilfish had been right: there was the potential for the technology that had brought me back to do a lot of good, and save others a great deal of heartbreak and suffering. No personal sacrifice was too great to ensure that one day, no parent would ever have to bury their child.
A/N - Chapter 36! Without any sleep and a constant barrage of faulty senses/stimuli, Elias is boosted by a quick fix before a planned meeting with the Duerten Forum (which has shed their old Homogeneity nomenclature). His procedure has been announced to the world, and he has a rendezvous with his old friend Erin Kuemper. The diplomatic meeting provides a welcome distraction, as the duo provide information and attempt to get Shield support for the war with the KC. Korajan politely expresses that his government is unwilling to get involved without a direct threat against Earth, but also shows curiosity over Elias’ novel experiences.
Will it be possible for Virnt to fix all the flaws with the synthetic form? Did Elias find a good reason to cling to in Korajan’s story, as he tries to hold on despite his present suffering? What do you think of the Duerten ambassador, and the state of relations between the SC and the Shield?
As always, thank you for reading and supporting! Cowboy story is less than a week away!
Comments
Charming Cobra
That sounds super cool!
Some Lvm
@Yannis: there is no way to know for sure unless SP tells us, but if they were customizing a robot body that wasn't originally designed to mimic a human, that would make sense. Adding functional eyelids might have been too delicate of a job, so Virnt decided it was not worth the investment.
Stueymon
Never said it would be ethical. Just saying it would work.
RandytheRubiksCube
It's strange that Terra Technologies didn't add any sort of organic feedback (e.g. need to eat, sleep, drink, and simulated versions of biological senses) to Meier's synthetic body. I read a fair bit of science fiction, and a common hypothesis in setting with advanced cybernetics like seen here that a human brain (or consciousness) wouldn't be able to stay sane in a machine body without organic feedback unless the human was a total psychopath or some other variety of seriously insane.
extraintelligence
The potential applications of this technology are insane. Fiber optics are about 2-3 million times faster than neurons, so assuming that's what they're using for synth mental processors, that would mean that synths could be doing a whole month's worth of contemplation in a single second (presuming there are no artificial limiters). Assuming they could connect directly with simulation software, a single science team could give you over 10 millennia's worth of man-hours in scientific development over the course of a single 8 hour workday. This is not even to mention the military applications. Let's take fighter craft, both atmospheric and spaceborne: a pilot could probably be trained to control the craft through direct mental command, as well as have the sensors fed directly into their sensory cortices, giving them unparalleled control and awareness. Their body (or perhaps just the part containing their mind) could be placed anywhere in the vehicle, so there need not be any accommodations for crew comfort or visibility. They would also have obscenely high G-force tolerance and literal light-speed reflexes, both limited more by the mechanical limits of their craft than by their biology. A synth fighter would be just as quick, compact, and maneuverable as a drone, but with the creativity, pattern recognition, and mental efficiency of one (or several) sapient minds. This also extends to larger ships, which could be made WAY more compact (possibly with some space dedicated to a simulation suite so the crew don't go insane), ground/sea vehicles, and even individual soldiers. Things like armor and military equipment could be integrated directly into the synth's body, vastly improving their efficiency, and their bodies could be altered to more effectively wield their weapons. You could even give a few of them extra-large synth bodies so they can wield weapons and armor that's typically towed or vehicle mounted, allowing them to bridge the gap between infantry and vehicular support. And what's more, each and every one of these synths could be the absolute best of the best, pulled from the most elite SpecOps teams and top scoring aces. You could build entire armies out of just one company or squadron's worth of men, copied several times over across your units and pumped out as fast as your industry will allow. The hardest question is what to do with them when the fighting is over. Do you give citizenship and civilian work to the billions (possibly hundreds of billions, or even trillions) of former soldiers, many of whom are duplicates of one another? Put them in an indeterminate sleep and pull them out of storage as needed? Or do you simply create them with the knowledge (and hopefully consent) that they're going to be scrapped once the fighting's done? It's one genie that's not easily returned to the bottle.
extraintelligence
There is a third possibility: that the synthetic being is a faithful copy of the original, but ultimately their own, new person, and that a new soul is manifested (or reincarnated) in them by virtue of being a living (for all intents and purposes), self-aware being. This is the option I'm most inclined to believe, personally.
extraintelligence
In all fairness, we don't know if this is the first iteration of Elias. There may be scores of failed Meiers piled up in lab storage for all we know. It might explain why Marcel was a bit batty, and standing there with a welding mask.
PhycoKrusk
As I argued, it wouldn't work: Our psyches/souls are shaped substantially by the biological processes that come with maturation, as well as the billions of externalities we experience just living day to day. Here, it seems that TT has disregarded the influence of biological processes (as evidenced by the exclusion, whether deliberate or incompetent, of a sleep cycle) on the development of the psyche/soul altogether, and although not directly indicated, I'm willing to bet money that they have similarly disregarded the influence of externalities on that same development. In short, the development of the psyche/soul is being treated as a strictly internal process that is either directed consciously by the individual at all times, or is considered to not occur at all and the psyche/soul is fully developed at the time of birth (which I think you and I will agree is objectively false). Additionally, belief in a soul or not, it would appear that data can simply be injected on a whim into the simulacrum. What is the effect of this? If so desired, can the data be injected in such a way that it's invisible? That memories are edited so that this machine behaves and responds as if it has _always_ believed something to be true, even if just the day previous it did not? Under those circumstances, how certain can anybody be that what they think and believe is what they thought and believed before they were revived? And if they cannot be certain of that, they how can they be certain at all that who they are now is who they were previously?
John
Hmm yes because nuking a couple cities is an ethical method in which to bring an ally into a war.
Some Lvm
@DenibVee - if I may butt in, I can think of one ethical option coming out of this technology, and that is repairing brain injury. Instead of using a snapshot (scan) and a full (bionic?) brain to make a copy of a dead person, why not use a small "co-processor", loaded with scan data and interfacing with the original organic brain to compensate for damage or trauma to the original brain? Implemented properly, it should function as any other prosthetic, be it an artificial internal organ or a limb.
Yannis Morris
@Some Lvm “ I put the most focus on your emotional matrix and your facial expressiveness, since I thought that has the highest importance of what makes you human” Virnt, at least, was contributing to the facial expressions Elias could make. And yet his face is devoid of eyelids. This is a problem
Yannis Morris
@T___ “ If they put so much effort in making his face convey thoughts and emotions” Yeah it’s super weird that they put so much effort into that and yet he is physically incapable of closing his eyes. He can’t wink, he can’t squint/blink his eyes in confusion or contemplation, and he can’t close his eyes a nd take a calming breath. We use our eyelids for facial expressions, *Virnt*
Yannis Morris
@Some Lvm I knew about how you will eventually just die if you don’t sleep for long enough. I also knew that your body will eventually start forcing you into “micro-sleeps” for a few minutes at a time to try and get something
Some Lvm
I think there may be some misconception here: Most people seem to assume Virnt and his team actually built the android body. Most likely, they didn't. It would entail entirely different discipline than what they are working on, which is instantiating a digital copy of organic conciseness. The body Elias has now, was more than likely not developed for this particular project at all, and instead Virnt and company just settled on the closest thing to "human" they could find on the market, with superficial cosmetic customization. It was wrong of Virnt to assume it would be good enough, and bad science on his part, truly a Fed style of thinking, which I wouldn't expect from him, since he was very young when the Federation fell. Still, any one can make mistakes. The fact this project was even green lit at all is a huge one! P.S.: I use the term "android" and not "cyborg", since Meir now has no organic components. Even his hair and skin are artificial. He is basically a robot trying to look human which would be an android, where as a proper cyborg would require a joining of organic and inorganic components.
Some Lvm
People want more time... Always more time, and it is understandable. Everyone has goals. The problem is, most people don't realize what the cost may be, because they never experienced it. @Tobias mentioned "fatal insomnia". Until today I did not know that was a thing! I knew sleep was vital, and RAM in particular, but I did not know there was an actual genetic condition that can stop you from sleeping to the point you die. Most people probably never heard of it either. But, here is the thing with this digital future NoP is headed to: It will likely soon be possible to simply edit out the remnants of the biological drive to sleep from the digital conciseness, and without whatever organic processes sleep entails, the digital copy will be able to run 24/7 with no ill effects to its sanity. Question is, what effect will that have on the personality of such individual, and what other edits may follow? Elias is now basically a post singularity human, not a homo sapiens, but something new that evolved from it, by artificial selection.
Some Lvm
Continuing in a separate message for clarity: Here is yet another issue: what about the soul? I am an atheist, so I don't believe in the existence of a soul as a distinct supernatural component of our being that persists after death. But there are plenty of religious people in the NoP universe who undoubtedly do. And for them, I can see two approaches, neither of which will bode well for the resurrected: Behind door number one is the belief that these androids are nothing more than soulless machines, and that the real soul of the person moved on at the time of death. People who choose this route will be reluctant to grant any rights, or treat the resurrected as people, regardless of what secular laws may be passed. Behind door number two is an option that is possibly even worse: Some might develop the belief that the resurrection process traps the soul on earth, in a machine cage, and prevents it from reaching haven, or reincarnating as god intended. (Pick a god, any god, with a capital G if that is your cup of tea). Zealots holding such a belief are likely to seek out resurrected individuals and try to liberate their souls by smashing their cages to bits. Basically, we are talking cults re-killing people on mass. New round of religious wars anybody?
Some Lvm
Well, if this couldn't get any worse, now they are talking about doing this to children? How would that even work? How can a digital copy of a child grow, in an artificial body that does not? Will a copy made from a snapshot be able to develop mentally at all? Meir is at least in his middle years, when he died he was at a sort of equilibrium physically and mentally, done developing and not declining yet. "Freezing" him at that point via the brain scan makes some sense. But imagine doing that to a child that is suppose to be rapidly developing both mentally and physiologically.
Some Lvm
@jetpacksuperman: I agree, but icky isn't the right word - terrifying is more like it! @Elliott: Have you ever had your brain taken apart with a debugger?
Stueymon
If they really wanted to get Kalqua's help they could just have a false flag op. Deck some battleships in the closest look to the Consortium ships and wipe out a city or two. It'd work. They could really use some kind of cybernetic experts... Shame there's not any in the Sapient Coalition... Oh well. (yes I know he's fully synthetic but the operating system is still human and in my book that counts)
Mike Barth
The horrible things that can be gotten up to with things like Meier2.0. A lot of nasty people could get away with killing someone important and then bringing them back with edited memories and subliminal programming. This bringing people back thing is writhe with potential sleeper agents and programmed soft slavery.
Yannis Morris
@SpacePaladin I can’t tell if you’re f**king with me and that’s infuriating… (Could also be a movie made after the war)
PhycoKrusk
At least with "code pushes" from drugs or whatever else, there's a clear break where something has changed. This is undetectable, and also untraceable, and if done to everybody in a group simultaneously, then was there ever a code push at all? Or is that simply what has always been true? How can you tell what is actually real in that circumstance?
PhycoKrusk
... shit. I _didn't_ notice that. That was like, one of Isif's boldest maneuvers in the war, too. It 100% would have been when Meier knew for certain that Isif had "the right stuff."
PhycoKrusk
Spoilers!
DemonVee
Im curious about what you see as an ethical use for this?
Space Paladin
It’s set in 1851, where a Feddie crashes on Earth and runs into a cowboy sheriff!
Charming Cobra
Cowboy story? What's this all about, was there something I missed?
Michael Halpern
Honestly, it might not all be their fault, think about it, sure this was probably in the works for a while, but political pressures could have forced them to move forward with activation before they were ready
Michael Halpern
not applicable, as cheating in sports isn't ethical, but there are plenty of ethical legal reasons to use steroids. The best thing they can do now is regulate it, so that unregulated copies that would be worse than the prototype Meir is copied to don't happen. There are also plenty of practical, and ethical ways the technology can be used.
Elliott
That's a great point but I think, like most arguments against it, it can be equally applied to biological life. In this story they can read minds like the Krev when hooked up or even just in a room scanning your brain. Just as Meier's thoughts are being read real-time by being hooked up to a machine it's a possible to do the same for organics, if not easier. And 'code' changes being pushed remotely is also possible with lifeforms in a way via drugs, or possible other technologies. I'll agree that, for now it seems, there are major vulnerability issues for the technology. But that doesn't mean we should scrap literal immortality because of it. Any technology can be misused.
Yannis Morris
He gonna be mad when he learns he wasn’t informed of Arxur benevolence
John
He likely wasn’t told the full story.
jetpacksuperman
Bro when I die I am done with this planet, don’t bring me back. I don’t think we were ever meant to be immortal and I think it would be a nightmare to lose so many organic functions like eating or sleeping
Alekss Žukovskis
why? is his behavior wrong in some way?
Yannis Morris
I haven’t reread the hundred plus comments on this post but did anyone else pick up on Meir conspicuously giving credit to the S.C./humans/Yotul for Kalqua’s rescue instead of the Arxur rebellion?
Apogee
The problem here is that there is no longer any sanctity of the mind and body. They see everything he thinks and feels and can control his body and actively edit his mind. More power over individual people is never led to a good thing. This is absolute power over another. There is also the fact that eventually there is gonna be two classes of robo people those who can afford bodies and mods with all the bells and whistles and those who can only afford the basic package which may not even include all 5 senses. Not to mention people hacking each other. This is how free will becomes a privilege and eventually dies altogether.
PhycoKrusk
It's also unusual. His sentence is for "life"; there's a very clear implication what that means. Any changes to his sentence will require a new trial, and any prosecution would be hard pressed to get changes to make it longer past a jury because any Human on that jury will have the necessary empathy to realize that besides being cruel and unusual, that it will set a dangerous precedent that such punishments can be levied upon _anybody,_ including them if the circumstances should ever demand it.
PhycoKrusk
It isn't just (for some of us) the lack of consent to be revived; it's the fact that they can see, in real time, what he is thinking at all times. Combined with their ability to push code changes remotely, there is zero reason to assume they cannot and are not pushing thoughts and directives into him to ensure he conducts himself in a way they find acceptable.
Dragon Writer Luc
I read a comic with that part: PS238! It's ongoing but very slow. You can read it online so I won't spoil it, but it does have "twins" where one is a duplicate made for a boy in a coma.
Elliott
Lots of people are seemingly appalled by this new technology from Meier's perspective but I think the tech could be 100% ethical and fine so long as the revived party's original person gave consent. Obviously Meier didn't, so maybe not in this case. But the way I see it, the primary concern stems from a similar argument used by the Self-Extinction movement, which I personally disagree with, in that it is unethical to even conceive life because that thing has no way of consenting to being born. In my own personal opinion though, it is better to exist, even if subjected to pain, than to not exist at all.
Elliott
I actually would prefer it. I'm sure many like yourself would disagree, but I believe so long as it's done with consent it's fine. The only argument that has validity against this for consent might be on the robot's end, but if we're fine with giving life to babies who never consented to being born then we should be the same here. Either way, put me on the list I'll take it if you don't want it.
Elliott
Literal immortality for digital copies of ourselves? How could that be icky at all? I'd 100% be on board. I do think prior consent should be asked though.
TheBlack2007
What happened to him in NoA is just so much worse than eternal imprisonment. Spoilers ahead: The premise of NoA is the attack on Earth whilst still not successful ended up much more devastating because the Venlil fleet abandoned their post. This caused humanity to kinda go into a revenge-driven frenzy. This madness made them build "The Spire" - a place that can only be described as a soul prison akin to Mikoshi from Cyberpunk 2077. With it being designed to simulate a reality worse than death for its occupants. They put Kalsim in there and had him live 20+ years inside a simulation. To the dismay of the humans operating it, that simulation was oddly pleasant for the most part. In it, the extermination order was never given and humanity was allowed to join the Federation as a full member, successfully fighting back the Arxur for good. Kalsim overcame his apprehension for humanity, found a human partner whom he adopted a child with, being appointed the Krakotl ambassador to the Federation and was just all-out happy - only for the humans to shut off the simulation at one point, with the last thing he saw being a rogue exterminator attack torching his partner and child. He retained the memories from within the simulation. And after he was yanked out of the simulation, the memories from his actual life flushed back in, causing the grief he already felt over the loss of his simulated family to become unbearable. And only after the realization of what he did fully sunk in, the humans stuffed his brain into a woefully inadequate synth body so he could mull about his loss and his guilt forever.
mitsos_pr
I would say second nicest, after Luala the exterminator. He might rise to #1 though
Harrison F
Bringing people back from the dead is immoral on many levels
James
That's cold. giving Kalsim an android body just so he can sit in prison forever. I'd call that behind cruel.
James
It was made pretty clear that they don't hate us, they just choose to remain independent of the SC.
DemonVee
The "it exists now" was never a good argument against bans/regulations. "Steroids exist now, there is no changing that, and banning them just ensures that the athletes who DO use them don't care about ethical practice" In that scenario, should we just stop all drug tests in sports and turn the competition into who can become the best super mutant just because the regulation isn't perfect? If something is unethical or harmful to people and society, that society should strive to prevent that harm from happening as well as it can, even when there are bad actors.
PhycoKrusk
I would point you towards the real and very clear violation of sapience in what we see in the story currently: Meier's thoughts are not his own any longer. Terra Tech has a direct viewport into his stream of thought; they know what he's thinking as soon as he does; they know what he's feeling _before_ he picks up on it and parses what's happening. If they can see it, they can alter it. It wouldn't even need to be something big enough that Meier notices; just a small nudge here and there that folds itself into the background. Is consent not a cornerstone of transhumanism?
EliasArt2Life
I’ve got a very close connection and awareness of my body, and I have to agree. Remove my body, you’re changing me. That being said, our brains are adaptable. It may be possible that, while Meier is not completely himself without his body, he can adapt and make his new body “his”.
EliasArt2Life
The tech exists now. There’s no changing that, and banning it just ensures that the people who DO use it don’t care about ethical practices. Might as well embrace the fact that this tech is in “beta”, and hope it can be steered along better paths. I seriously think Terra Technologies gets some comeuppance though; the sheer lack of foresight for people who claimed to be trying to give Meier an experience as “close to human as possible” is appalling.
EliasArt2Life
The Duerten no longer hate us, and said vague threat has attacked civilians unprovoked, exterminated a species (as far as the evidence shows), and overwhelmed the strongest species in this sector of the galaxy. If that doesn’t warrant at least agreeing to a defensive war (not, we’ll protect Earth and Leirn if they get attacked)… well, that’s the type of thinking that led to Germany taking so many countries in WWII. It always seems like someone else’s problem, until it comes for you.
EliasArt2Life
As usual, the Duerten make diplomacy difficult by using messengers as diplomats. None of the negotiators actually have any negotiating power; they just relay the message their leaders give them. And those leaders stay comfortably away from all the problems they’re making decisions on. Until those problems arrive in their doorstep and orbitally bombard 80% of their planet. I hope other species are more agreeable, but I doubt it; I think they’re all too stuck in their Federation ways. Well… no. I think we’ll get 1-3 from the Shield (my guess is the Leshee and maybe a new species or two) and 1 or two from the Federation Remnants who are reconsidering changing. I imagine that, without the Kolshians and Farsul holding everything together, some of the Remnants are starting to realize how much the heads of the Federation were doing to control them, and might not like the implications of that.
Roscuro
It's amusing that they're just tring to recreate Destiny's Exo's. Luckily Elias didn't self-terminate like the first exo's did. But he still needs the faux feelings of being human like they did.
Gumcel
The ambassador is more than reasonable, it was frankly an awful plan. They seriously tried to rally a coalition of people that hate them, so they could go on the offensive vs a vague threat they know almost nothing about. Are they stupid? I suppose it doesn’t hurt to try but damn what were you expecting?
Evaisa
Lmao like actually, feels like they did no research into what is required for mental health
RaphaelFrog
But that's what I wrote... They didn't secure it yet. I don't think I wrote it that unreadable XD
Lokyar
One of the major benefits to this technology is longer term punishments against avian species of all kinds, as well as the ability to "adjust" their perceptions and use their psychology. Just like was inadvertently used against Meier with the comfort food and sleep deprivation.
PhycoKrusk
What did I write _immediately_ after that paragraph?
PhycoKrusk
Keeping the "best and brightest" around forever is actually not a good idea because it would completely stagnate basically all development. It's a sad truth, but most people who become "the expert" in one field come to believe that what they think is just as correct and "informed" in every field; even fields that are completely unrelated. Their thinking also becomes more and more rigid and they are less and less likely to accept any information that challenges what they "know" is correct, even when all the evidence suggests they are wrong.
TheBlack2007
It's not about humans being the exception but rather humans being Omnivores - like many other former Federation members they lived in peace with for hundreds of years. Omnivory is pretty much accepted now among the SC and at least the Duerten Forum seems to have come to terms with it as well. The Federation Remnants and splinter factions probably still have an entirely different outlook.
TheBlack2007
They didn't manage to secure their help yet. Remember there's currently Chekhov's Drone Swarms barreling in on three planets as all of this pans out.
TheBlack2007
Anyone who ever did an all-nighter past their mid-20s can probably tell you how blissful a good dose of sleep can be...
TheBlack2007
So it turns out, "Nature of Abandonment" is not actually abandoned - it just got partially canonized? =P Please don't tell me you have any plans for Kalsim. Even he did not deserve what happened to him in that story...
TheBlack2007
Despite being very active on the Subreddit, I've generally stopped caring about its opinions on the Main Story. On one hand they complain the story isn't progressing enough, then they complain it doesn't move in the right direction when it does. I guess these last two chapters will be 50:50 in their reception and that's fine. The author seems to want to explore some Cyberpunk elements in their story and IMO Meyer is a great character to provide that.
Tobias Sumrall
The problem is that it isn't "sleep" that we need (at least not entirely), as a sapient or even biological being. We need to be able to DREAM. For some reason that we still do not know on a biological level, our brains need to be able to dream. Be it a way to synthesize and integrate subconscious information we have accumulated, be it a way to anneal experiences and maintain the complex simulation that is a consciousness, be it a simple part of biochemical upkeep in the physical organ of the brain, we do not know. What we do know is, there have been cases of people being able to fully fall asleep, but due to injury or illness they have lost the ability to dream, to fully enter REM sleep. These people, who unlike those with fatal insomnia, can still properly sleep but not dream, end up going insane and dying the same as those with fatal insomnia. We have to be able to dream to maintain function. And we still don't entirely know why.
TheBlack2007
Welcome to the wonderfully dystopian world of Cyberpunk literature. The points you make here are the main philosophical question this subgenre deals with: What makes us human and how much can you remove, alter, replace or emulate for someone to still remain human - and how would immaterial concepts such as immortal souls and religious salvation play into this. Or in one term: Transhumanism. I'm really excited how this entire thing will go down. I'm genuinely stoked NOP is going down that path and touching on these subjects, especially since the hint has always been there since NOP1-1 in form of the memory transcriptions. After it's already been confirmed they indeed do have a larger role to play than being a convenient narration device to allow for multiple 1st person narrations to exist within the story. Also great Meier finally gets built upon as a POV-character. His chapters in NOP1 were merely a literary device to fill the reader in on some UN-related worldbuilding that wouldn't work properly from an Alien's POV. The UN's first reaction to Aliens was classified, so no way Noah or Marcel would relay this to Tarva or Slanek in full detail. Likewise, using Isif as a POV-character for his exchange with Meier would have revealed his true intentions too early, draining much of the suspense the reader was supposed to feel at the prospect of Earth being at the mercy of the Arxur.
pogman
Well, on second thought. This chapter made a lot of people think hard in the comment section.
Tobias Sumrall
As a transhumanist myself, this is a debate as old as transhumanism itself. A lot of transhumanists, the most notable of which being Yudkowsky, are completely comfortable with the "perfect destructive scan, perfect copy" digitization of a person. Myself, I see that as murder and replacing me with a perfect copy of me. The perfect copy of me, being the only one remaining with no gap in memory or time, would BE me. It would get to live the desired life as a digitized sapient. The problem is that ME, the me currently using my brain and body to type this comment, would die in the process. There would be a clear terminus: my life, my experience of the universe, would end with the scan. There would be a break differentiating me from the other me, and I would be dead. The goal for me has always been a Ship of Theseus gradual replacement, neuron by neuron over an extended period of time, with functionally identical nanites. But that is for digitizing a living being. If I died in some freak accident on the same day that they developed the tech to scan and perfectly copy a brain, I would be more than happy to have it done post-mortem. At the end of the day, yes, this current me would be dead. But not dead FROM the scanning process. So it is better that a form of me gets to live on as a digitized sapient, rather than the gross sum of what made me ME being permanently lost.
pogman
Why would anyone be exasperated with this, story-wise this is amazing. Redditors did go wild when they didn't like how the story went but this is different I think
EF_stream
I am scared of how this goes. Not story-wise but how other readers will take it. I can already see the fic writers going hog-wild and people getting more exasperated with the whole idea
Michael Halpern
i personally take the Ship of Theseus approach here, the copy isn't the original, but the continuity of self is there- from the copy's perspective, this is also why there shouldn't be multiple instances of the same person at once save for accidents like someone who was copied waking up from a coma they weren't expected to wake from or someone presumed dead being found alive, in those cases at least they would have had time to diverge to mostly being their own people, like twins, and again it wouldn't have been deliberate. Intentionally having multiple instances of the same person around at once inherently makes the copies lesser than the original, which you really don't want to do
Michael Halpern
some of that i attribute to the body being a prototype, a lot of features can be added over time, as their importance becomes more apparent, for a first attempt it certainly isn't bad, though it certainly could be better, some of those features, might even be there but not yet mapped properly and are therefore disabled to minimize the chance of sensory overload or mismatch. which may have been predicted as being a greater risk than sensory deprivation.
The Lost Wanderer
The only good thing would be the rise of the Tenno.
T___
I'm with you about the so-called inconsequentials. For example, of course he feels like he is suffocating. Like they should've created the feeling of breathing, even if it would actually be used for some other purpose. Adding sensors for pressure, hot, cold, taste, and smell would be beneficial as well. He could have the ability to taste poisons and smell air-borne hazards. Blinking and closing eyelids is very important. If they put so much effort in making his face convey thoughts and emotions, wouldn't it be easier for biological entities to accept him if he has the normal mannerisms. Like sighing is a language on it's own. Human - and presumably alien - skin has a dense network of somatosensory neurons. Even having sense of pain and itch might prove important for the mind.
Yannis Morris
@Soheils So Meir in this chapter is "not needing to sleep", then?
T___
Would they make unique memories instantly, though, in any meaningful way? The same mind in several instances in the same place... I don't see the memories being that unique. Add to that the horror of there being many "yourselves", they could all spiral out of control. Really, that would be a nightmare. If you decided yourself to copy your mind, and include the memory of how you came to that conclusion, it might be different.
RaphaelFrog
Great job with another chapter! Well.. Meier is the first one to return, so it's only logical to assume that it will take time to emulate all the feelings of biological body. It's a bit easier for them to check what's missing, couse the subject of the matter can actively tell them "Hey, I don't feel *put anything you imagine here*". I won't be delving into morality of this technology and who deserves to be called what. It's a similar concept to "teleport problem". Is the person who walked out from teleport the same or are they a mere copy? The fact is that with memory transcription technology it was just a matter of time when someone would reanimate the dead. Maybe it's better it happened this way and not in the form of clone insurrection, becouse some kind of criminal organization menaged to get to it first. A bit of a shame they did not menage to get Duerten to help SC. It was worth a shot thou! Keep doing an absolutely wonderful job! I'm looking forward to see more :3
GeneralLDS
I think what people meant is that being tired is annoying. being fully awake all the time + an optional sleep button would be great. click the button when you need to rest, otherwise you can be full of energy
Shajenko
"But hey, silver lining: If Terra Technologies is only now getting their act together enough to really get the memory transcription to work in the way they wanted, Isif must still be alive in 2160!" Not necessarily. After all, Meier certainly wasn't. It just means somebody scanned his brain and saved it. Maybe they saw that this tech was on the horizon and wanted to get scans of significant people before they were gone for good. Maybe somebody was doing research into brains of leaders. No way to know.
Wingit98
I can see one good argument in favor of this tech, and it's that you could keep the best and brightest around forever to continue helping society along for as long as they wish. ....but in reality, you know billionaires and well-connected people would be the only ones with access to this tech. Also, the Duertan are.... Kinda nice now? Neat
Shajenko
For more on ethical quandaries surrounding the ability to duplicate individual human minds, see Altered Carbon and Eclipse Phase. It gets dark.
Cᐰptain ᐰwsome #119864 snapd
Virny needs to read up on Destiny Exo lore
Cartoon dinosaur
I'm sorry to say this but we are NOT just our minds. If you asked the question "are we a mind with a body? or are we a body with a mind?" You would just need to ask which came first. The body appeared first and then evolved a mind to navigate the world around it. Sponge->worm Hes not just not Meier but not complete and never will be without at least somewhat biological body.
jetpacksuperman
I genuinely hope that Terra Technologies’ project fails miserably. It’s so icky
Cartoon dinosaur
No, no this tech is is sickening. You know the ship of Theseus? We live as such, every cell in our body's is replaced several times in our livers. This is taking a ship and burning it and making an exact copy. It is not Meier its a simulation of some whose 's been dead for decades. They can change him as needed. Heck Meier change of view when the bird mentioned her child is HIGHLY suspicious. This is fucking awful.
Blake S
Yeh this reaks of a very broken desperate marcel playing the devil in Virnt's ear. Its a shame, with more time and consideration, they could probably work out alot of the issues with the hardware with software patches, meyers chest doesnt need to rise and fall, so long as he thinks its rising and falling and that hes breathing, it could probably give him some solace. Just reeks of cut corners and a rush job.
Dragon Writer Luc
Metaphysical thing that encompasses who you are. I suppose theology must be different in this setting due to the space aliens, but regardless the copy in the robot would not know anything from any afterlife that would exist.
Fuck Head
Really shows how a lot of them view humans as the exception at best.
Fuck Head
Oh if only you knew ambassador...if only you knew.
Abby
Some people really take for granted just how much mental benefit we get from having a psychological dividing mark between each day. Though sleep being optional would be nice.
Bunten44
alright, then who of the 10 or more clones gets to keep the Originals stuff, family and friends? Just as an example let's say they had a daughter who gets wed now which of the endless clones gets to accompany her to the altar or are you suggesting that none would like to do that or that everyone gets to do it? Also, another problem is that you can throw societal change out the window as we are now running on copies of old minds that don't want change. Not to mention what it would do to the labour market why employ a fresh organic when you can count on reliable worker clone 08678.
PhycoKrusk
Like I've been saying: 100% "can we", 0% "should we".
Luiz Henrique Alves
Considering how much Virnt is obsessed with humans, he might have forsake all fed knowledge and focused on the human knowledge
Soheils
Dude if I could take the option of not needing to sleep without my brain falling apart I’d take it in a heartbeat.
Edmund Lam
Theory Of A Deadman. 😀 It’s a rock band. https://youtu.be/UfnAOcBirAs?si=NWI5aZCZepQHZREh
Michael Halpern
define "soul" he's a copy, and likely a reasonable authority about the process of dying, though there'd be nothing after in his memory, Halo also does this with smart AI, which require deconstruction of a brain to create, usually one that's already dying, though sometimes (Cortana and a few after her) from cloned brains, or from living originals (Prometheans)
Edmund Lam
Read the Bobiverse books on Amazon. That’s basically the premise of the stories.
Edmund Lam
A cloned body? That makes sense. The cloning part is very likely to be more possible than the mind uploading part.
Edmund Lam
In the Upload TV series on Prime, being uploaded to the virtual reality results in the person’s physical head being vaporized.
PhycoKrusk
"This program could give children like Korajan’s daughter a chance to grow up, and be a kid, free from pain." NO IT CANNOT 100% "can we," 0% "should we." So far, everything the team has done has completely dismissed the influence of biological processes of the shaping of a person, and I'd be willing to bet they've only barely thought of how externalities might affect them as well. We know this is the case because, from the information we have available, there was no plan: "Revive Meier" was their entire plan. No thought was seemingly given to how they deal with the legal or societal hurdles that might follow; revive Meier and then hope there's no torches and pitchforks. And lastly, the point that occurred to me just a bit ago: Why Meier? It's only partly because they need a unifier. The other ties into the question others have asked: "Why not Zhao? They clearly need a military-minded leader, so why not Zhao?" The answer is simple, and has been revealed to us all throughout the narrative: They don't have a transcription of Zhao's memories. Whether because he's not yet dead, or because they never managed to obtain one is irrelevant; Zhao is not coming to save anybody. But hey, silver lining: If Terra Technologies is only now getting their act together enough to really get the memory transcription to work in the way they wanted, Isif must still be alive in 2160! (Shut up! This whole arc has been tremendously depressing and really showcasing how short-sighted the people currently in charge actually are; let me have my silver lining!)
Michael Halpern
having a physical avatar that imitates the original body is a good attempt to limit disphoria, eventually that could become an optional digital avatar for those that do decide to opt for different bodies,
Dragon Writer Luc
I have "read" (one is a game) two other pieces of fiction in the area of digital copies of people recently: 1. Crosscode (game), where human players of a VR game can be digitally recreated. The new avatar looks and plays like the original, but might not share all memories. This feels good to me as a method of record-keeping, but probably shouldn't be used while the original is still alive. 2. Thousand Tales (book series), where you can have your brain scanned and replicated into a computer program. The scanning process is 100% lethal to the original. This feels very bad to me, especially because it seems like you are killing yourself for a digital copy to take over. In any case, I don't think the copy of Elias is the exact same person as the original and definitely wouldn't ask him about death—because the copy isn't the one with the soul! This one doesn't know anything that would have happened to that. He's a fantastic record of how this particular person would react to current circumstances, and may be a good source of wisdom, but by no means is he able to be an authority on the experience of what is after death.
Intricate Zebra
I already knew it, but MAN Virnt is mindmeltingly autistic.
Intricate Zebra
They can have a little racism as a treat.
Quenten
Nicest bird in NoP history (still somewhat racist)
Space Paladin
It’s funny, there’s several folks on discord who say they wish they didn’t have to sleep. I don’t wholly disagree, especially when I imagine how much more time I’d have to write and do the things I like!
Space Paladin
Of course! Hopefully they help navigate the interconnected stories 😅
Michael Halpern
even if we accept your argument, there's the other issues like fing up representation by having thousands or even millions of digital clones vote, or on the reverse, having disposable people. having them as ship minds is different as they can choose that
Quenten
Or even alternatively, be a reverse cyborg and put your mechanical brain in a biological shell.
Bas Donders
Yes they are, because they will also start making unique memories instantly. They're all based on the same person, but they're all different people.
mitsos_pr
Articulate Duerten 🥰🥰🥰
Byron Ritchie
Do you want gravitals/necrons? Because this is how you get gravitals/necrons! Although tbf Meier ain’t a genocidal maniac unlike them but still!
Michael Halpern
because they wouldn't JUST have the same name, everything that makes the person an individual, everything that matters would be copied. sure their experiences would diverge instantly, but they are no longer a unique person.
Dragon Writer Luc
That or being able to change frames, so I can see what it's like in imitable alien bodies. (Probably can't mimic the birds.)
Bas Donders
How would it be identity theft? You could just treat them as any other two citizens with the same name. Besides, from the moment of creation they will differentiate themselves from the others, simply because no two people can be in the same place at the same time, and will therefore inevitably have different experiences. No one's "individuality" is taken away; rather, more individuals are created.
Michael Halpern
true, but how much of that is tied to biology. More importantly though, the lead scientist/engineer on the project comes from an ex-fed world, things that are common knowledge to us might not be understood the same way to them.
LiminalSouthpaw
Virnt's trying. It's a shame his advisors are a bunch of workaholic lunatics and worse yet, Marcel Frasier. He really hates being human now, doesn't he? Such a quiet thing, to fall. Well, with that environment it's not much surprise they ended up making a shell that inflicts extreme dysphoria. A digital neuron wants all the same things as a fleshy one, if you really made a perfect analogue. I'm sure you could probably get used to terminating a bunch of the "extra" desires of human existence, if for some foolish reason you wanted that, but not all at once! Personally, I'd want the opposite - to eventually experience every shade and tone of existence, be it native to humanity or not.
Quenten
Man if I'm going to be resurrected into a soulless metal shell at least make it a cool one. Plug me into a capital ship computer or something. I can be trusted with apocalyptic weaponry, definitely.
REDemon14
Happy to see that some of Elias' problems can be fixed and the issues stem from people who are talking about hypothetical. Rando: "I'd never want to sleep. " Elias: "Bitch, you try it!" Sad to see the Duerten still holding onto federation dogma in certain aspects, but you know, baby steps. "We can't get involved in your war for any reason." *remembers drones on their way* Oooooh, no I like Korajan. He polite and straight forward. The SC and Shield relationship is probably the best outcome for blocs that don't see eye to eye on everything, but still respect each other enough to not have open disdain. Don't like the Shield's "No carnivore diet at all ever" policy, but like I said, baby steps. They're are good uses for the digital resurrection tech that Meier is going through. Korajan's daughter is evidence of that. Just need a few more tweaks. Great chapter. Looking forward to more.
Yannis Morris
Ehhhhh. I mean the psychological benefits that come with sleep are known *today*.
Michael Halpern
no, that would be the worst case of Identity theft possible. individual "clones" of the dead are one thing, as then you aren't taking away anyone's individuality, but rather continuing it - Ship of Theseus style perhaps but its still a continuity of self and experience, rather than a duplication of experience
Michael Halpern
I'm willing to chalk this up to unknown territory, at least in part, after all, without the biological need, it might not have been clear if there would be any additional phycological needs for sleep, the option SHOULD have been there from the beginning, just in case, rather than just take a workaholic's sleep preferences at face value.
Willy
I'm still pessimistic about this new tech. But hey! This is HFY story so I along for the ride!
Bas Donders
Since all that is needed is the mind recording tech to bring someone back, they should spin up this technology and start churning out clones of earth's best living scientists. We've only had one John von Neumann in our history. What if we had ten, or a hundred? How many more problems would've been solved if they could cooperate with like-minded peers? It's an incredible technology that shouldn't only be used to bring dead people back. That'd be such a waste.
Michael Halpern
yeah on the ethics i would refer to the Star Trek transporter debate, still they should have made sure the body would experience as much as what his organic body could as possible. especially sleep. Smell and at least simulated taste should have also been high priority.
Michael Halpern
honestly the besides having a "do not digitally revive" tag for medical records, the biggest ethical issue is digital cloning, but they could treat it like Star Trek transporters and not intentionally create multiple instances of the same person, and only do it after the original is dead. They'd have to treat accidental copies on a case by case basis. The bodies, or at least the processors they are running on, would have to be able to experience all the same things the original would, heck eating would have practical purpose even if most energy would come from other means, nanotech self maintenance systems would need raw material and being able to get some energy from food as well could simplify the issue of requiring power infrastructure.
Rick VanHoute
The more I hear about the reviving the dead project the more concerned I am. I feel like many people over looked their ethics classes or dropped out of them. Also not surprised the dureten aren't helping.
Blake S
Dang how refreshingly cordial, lets see how well that cool demeanor sticks around when the Consortium fleet rocks up. Allso im interested how predator disease facilities excist on Shield worlds and fed lite planets. The premise off the disease has been thuroughly disproven, I can imagine that fed lite worlds just see the disproval as human lies. But presumably the duerten are clear headed enough to see the truth of the condition, they even seem to be casting off tenants of predator disease diagnosis like encouraging individuality. But they still keep the facilities up. Are they still treating the patients the same. Despite undoubtly having acess to more modern treatment and diagnostic methods. I can see them keeping it up if they value a non violent mindset, to the point of being afraid of people with mental illness, but are they still doing witchhunts, ignoring sapient murders and eletroshocking people etc?
Mr. Walker
Yeah . . . I'm not really feeling this anymore.
Yannis Morris
“ The humans I talked to said they wouldn’t want to sleep, unless they had to!” *And you didn’t think to consult a mental health professional on whether or not they “had to”, Virnt?* How much of *Being a living, breathing flesh and blood creature* did you deem “inconsequential”?
Youre a swedekisser arent you
Meier is a very noble man, and I disagree with his self-judgement of being weak willed. It would probably break just about anyone to return from the dead, and being unable to enjoy the full human experience no less. He's handling it rather well, I'd say.
PassengerNo
Space Paladin, thank you for making those collections. :)
Yannis Morris
Oh motherf$$ker. F%%king *sleep* “didn’t add much to the human experience”?!
Swan
It does smell like the hole revival thing was a bit of a rush job to be honest; If they were to do it ethically, I'd have expected them to have a psychologist at the wake up for example.
Swan
Good to see Elias's suffering is lessening; no matter if bringing him back or not was ethical, I think we can all agree the state his body is in isn't.
Just Some Grass
I am concerned at them seemingly not using volunteers for the revival project
Mark Baculna
Third
XavHD
Welcome to today show of "Let's torture a dead man".
Themu 050
2nd
print Path
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